Tuesday, November 1, 2011

Hatzola & protecting women from embarrassment - guest post by Ruchi Freier esq.

This guest post deals with the delicate issue of women's embarrassment and degradation when treated by their well-meaning and purely motivated neighbors in Hatzalo. In my own recent investigation of the matter I have found that - contrary to the common belief of men - it is a traumatic experience for many women. One posek I asked whether it was permissible to have women members responded, "Why is their a need for this when they have been going to male doctors for many generations?"
When I explained the difference between a doctor and a neighbor - he told me to speak to the director of that communities Hatzalo concerning the practicability and only then would he evaluate the proposed solution in terms of halacha. The director told me he would bring it up at the next general meeting. I spoke to a senior Hatzaloa member in Lawrence who felt that the issue of modesty was not common. However he said that even if there were a need and there were no halachic objection - the proposal would be rejected because of a more serious barrier. He said that one of the most important factors in saving life is response time.
He said it would be extremely difficult if not impossible to add another level to the organization without significantly increasing the response time. But he also was open to suggestions that would accommodate women's feelings. In sum, this is a legitimate question and concern for the Jewish community.

56 comments :

  1. If she doesn't want a neighbor responding, she can call the city's 911 EMS Ambulance to respond, instead of calling Hatzalah.

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  2. It should be pointed out that 911 does not accommodate same gender responder requests. IOW, a man can not request that a man respond to his 911 call for an ambulance, and a woman can not request that a woman respond to her 911 call for an ambulance. They will get whoever 911 sends.

    So why is their a greater need for Hatzalah to provide same gender responses than a need for 911 to do so? I don't see why Hatzalah needs to provide such a gender customized response that 911 doesn't need to provide.

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  3. This issue has been debated by Hatzalah's Vaas HaRabbonim long ago and already decided. The decision was that it is the wrong idea and should not be implemented. Why is this being rehashed? The Gedolim Hatzalah's asks its shailos to have already issued a ruling on this matter.

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  4. When Rav Schwab -- due to extenuating circumstances of their being insufficient responders -- temporarily allowed women to respond in certain circumstances in WH, he specifically said it is only allowed until they have sufficient men to respond. That is why once they had enough men to respond, they discontinued that practice, per Rav Schwab's instructions.

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  5. Freier writes she met with the Skverer Rebbe shlita. She mentions that "meeting" (anyone can meet the Rebbe by simply waiting in the waiting room for a turn to meet him) as if he agreed or encouraged this endeavor. He did not. And while Freier doesn't claim he did, she mentions her "meeting" to falsely imply he did.

    And why doesn't she mention HOW the women helping New Square Hatzalah do their thing. It is far far different than the radical proposals shes been shopping around for the last few weeks.

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  6. Ruchie is trouble-making muckraker who in the past has made quite subtle, yet obvious, criticisms of our Rabbonim shlita as being dumb incompetent nincompoops easily swayed and manipulated by evil people.

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  7. This comment has been removed by the author.

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  8. yenta said..

    Your comment here is dumb and useless. If you have meaningful assertions please state them. future comments like these will simply be rejected.

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  9. Master said...
    This issue has been debated by Hatzalah's Vaas HaRabbonim long ago and already decided. The decision was that it is the wrong idea and should not be implemented. Why is this being rehashed? The Gedolim Hatzalah's asks its shailos to have already issued a ruling on this matter.
    -------------
    what were they asked and what was their response?

    the poskim I spoke to took the matter seriously.

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  10. Samuel and Feivel - you have missed the point of the post. Please reread it and if you need help I try and explain it to you.

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  11. Benny this is not the same issue as Rav Schwab addressed. This is not asking of an integrated force of men and women but a women's unit for women's issues that are not urgent issues of pikuach nefesh

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  12. Chaim why don't you stick to the issues instead of making nasty inferences.

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  13. It is interesting that all the comments so far seem to react to fear and disgust to this proposal - all in the name of rabbinic authority.
    People I spoke with - both in Hatzalo and rabbis - took a much more serious response and acknowledged that the issue of modesty is real but perhaps is not enough to change to status quo - especially if it creates a longer response time.

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  14. "but a women's unit for women's issues that are not urgent issues of pikuach nefesh"
    ====================

    If it is for non-urgent issues, and as Freieir's article explains the problem is being embarassed that community members are responding to the call, then Samuel Roth and Feivel make a good point: Let her call 911 for her non pekuach nefesh (as you've said) situation, and she will get emergency personnel that are not community members.

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  15. Why do we need hatzola at all since there are the 911 EMTs

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  16. What I would like to know, is what mysterious gender related issues are we talking about? Is this code talk for baby delivering? If it is, then why not state that clearly?

    Further, I wonder if this discomfort is due to the extreme segregation in our communities and tremendous pressure (by women) on women about being tznius at all times. I know there is even pressure in certain communities (by the women) for the women to use only female ob/gyns.

    Therefore, I think this Hatzala issue isn't so much a feminist agenda as it is the womens' tznius police issue. I would think that what should be most important for the women, is to know that mother and baby are in safe and knowledgeable hands.

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  17. DT: We need Hatzalah for the
    urgent/pikuach nefesh calls. Youve indicated this is for the non-urgent issues. So they can call 911, and no community members will respond which is Freier's issue. Problem solved.

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  18. I can't speak to Israel and the Hatzalah there, but here in the US, many areas have 911 response times that would leave people dead. NYC and Brooklyn in particular, which is how I think Hatzolah got started.

    In Teaneck, they solved the problem by joining TVAC (the city's Teaneck Volunteer Ambulance Corps) and improving it from within. I think this is the smarter alternative, where possible. It gets you a better result, as you have the ability to set up better logistics since you are working with a larger team of people, gov't programs, etc... You also have more ability to train full paramedics. And, it does not turn ambulance care into a very pricey tzedaqah to add to the community's bill.

    In my hometown of Passaic, the start of the local Hatzolah was a mess, leaving us with two -- one that operates despite the communal leadership, and the one that is generally used. Of course, few donors give to the first as well, so it's not a major communal expense.

    But ambulance response time has gone up from before, because Passaic was not an area that had poor response times in the past. And the Hatzolah has no paramedics, so if ch"v someone is having a heart attack, calling Hatzolah introduces a delay as they will call 911 to get one to the scene.

    Last, calling EMS on Shabbos minimizes the violation of Shabbos. Calling Hatzolah on Shabbos just shifts who drives. In the case of a birth, where time is not of the essence, I think halachically the husband should drive rather than call another Jew to so it.

    One problem the 911 EMS does not address is the neighborhood with a poor local hospital. There are many cases where people in that situation would not be best served by being taken to the nearest hospital. When my son (who has Downs and Diabetes, and thus has medical issues) ran 105deg F Fri night a week ago, we called Hatzolah just to get him into the ER at the right hospital. (And people taken in by ambulance have shorter wait times one you get there.)

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    Replies
    1. Hi,

      Just came across your comment. As an EMT in NJ and NY, I would like to make the following statement. Paramedics (outside of Lakewood) belong to hospitals. They are dispatched by MONOC or MICCOM. Teaneck EMS, Passaic 911 or Passaic Hatzolah do not have any paramedic response. Calling 911 or Hatzolah will get you the same paramedics. The dispatcher after sending an ambulance will call MICCOM or MONOC and request paramedics based on the severity of the call.

      On another note, chillul shabbos for pikuach nefesh should be done by the most chashuva person. It is not be passed off to a non Jew, child or anyone else. That is very clear in Halacha and in Teshuvos from contemporary poskim.

      Delete
  19. I guess none of you have been delivered by your neighbors. I almost was with baby number 6 (I have experience with childbirth; and I have used male doctors when better than the female alternatives) but the indignity was so great that I couldn't let them in the room and asked them to wait in the hall in case of emergency while my husband and I managed ourselves. Men, you will never understand this (until your wives make you deliver the baby!).

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  20. Rav Katz from the shul at Ave O & East 24th once gave a shiur on inyanei Hatzolah. He said R' Moishe once poskened it is better to have goyim drive on Shabbos but was later chozer from the psak after considering that Yiddishe drivers will do anything to be matzil. They will get creative like driving on sidewalks and anything else that needs to be done.

    A certain rosh kollel once publicly attacked Hatzolah for what he perceived as unnecessary chilul Shabbos after responding to emergencies. He was taken to a din Torah by Abish Brodt's brother and was chewed out by R' Zelig Epstein obm who told him next time you have a problem with Hatzolah, you don't open your mouth, you come to me.

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  21. Response time is an issue that needs to be addressed, but so is patient autonomy.

    From Judge Benjamin N. Cardozo, in, Schloendorf v. Society of New York Hospital, 211 N.Y. 125 (1914): "In the case at hand, the wrong complained of is not merely negligence. It is trespass. Every human being of adult years and sound mind has a right to determine what shall be done with his own body; and a surgeon who performs an operation without his patient's consent, commits an assault, for which he is liable in damages."

    Patient autonomy also exists in halacha, albeit with narrower parameters. Many poskim hold that basic life-sustaining treatment can't be declined.

    Its an issue for the Hatzalah rabbis. Maybe something can be worked out. Mrs. Freier raises legitimate issues.

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  22. Flatbush said...

    Rav Katz from the shul at Ave O & East 24th once gave a shiur on inyanei Hatzolah. He said R' Moishe once poskened it is better to have goyim drive on Shabbos but was later chozer from the psak after considering that Yiddishe drivers will do anything to be matzil. They will get creative like driving on sidewalks and anything else that needs to be done.

    --------------------
    I'll never forget the Shabbos that Rav Dovid Cohen spoke at his minyan (he hadn't yet moved across the street to his own building. He said he had asked Rav Moshe Feinstein about having non-Jewish drivers for Hatzola on Shabbos. He said he had never seen Rav Moshe angry before. Rav Moshe was furious at the suggestion that a goy be used and was emphatic that only Jews could be drivers. He said only a Jew truly cares about another Jew and will do what it takes to save him.

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  23. Interesting is that there is a hue and cry for government to fund yeshivot to take some of the burden off our backs, and here we have a case of the opposite.
    KT
    Joel Rich

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  24. Elliot Pasik said...

    Response time is an issue that needs to be addressed, but so is patient autonomy.
    =====================
    I agree with you. I was surprised by the unawareness by rabbis and Hatzola about how traumatic it is for women. Men simply don't think what it would be like if the situation was reversed and they had to be treated by women doctors or emts

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  25. Kavod ha'bria is also an interesting halachic issue. Without any torn paper in sight, kavod ha'bria makes it permissible for bathroom paper to be torn, on Shabbos, with a shinui.

    Can kavod ha'bria be utilized to justify female Hatzaloh paramedics and EMTs for childbirth situations, thereby trumping the concern of men and women working in too familiar proximity with each other, and also a slightly delayed response time? I don't know. Its not a Shabbos issue, of course, but I just find the concept interesting, and powerful. Kavod ha'bria trumps Shabbos. Let the rabbis debate and decide.

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  26. I too, for one, don't get why these few women who have a problem with Hatzalah don't just call 9-1-1 instead of trying to shove down their views on Hatzalah and on Hatzalah's Rabbonim shlit"a.

    Additionally, if there were a real problem with male paramedics treating women in labor why has their been no outcry by women across thousands of cities in the United States demanding that 9-1-1 provide them only female paramedics on labor calls. Their silence is deafening.

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  27. Elliot: The rabbonim have debated and decided. Long ago. Their decision was nay. And, no, kovod habria does not trump pikuach nefesh (response times.) Pikuach Nefesh even trumps Shabbos Kodesh.

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  28. kootch said...

    Elliot: The rabbonim have debated and decided. Long ago. Their decision was nay. And, no, kovod habria does not trump pikuach nefesh (response times.) Pikuach Nefesh even trumps Shabbos Kodesh.
    =================

    Kootch what issue did the rabbis debate? Was it having a co-ed hatzolah? If so that is not the issue being raised here now.
    Furthermore if it could be worked out that response time is not degraded - would women emts be allowed?

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  29. Baila said...

    I too, for one, don't get why these few women who have a problem with Hatzalah don't just call 9-1-1 instead of trying to shove down their views on Hatzalah and on Hatzalah's Rabbonim shlit"a.
    ====================
    Why the strident language? The issue is being raised. Since when is raising a question not allowed?
    While it obviously doesn't bother you to have a neighbor deal with you - but there are definitely a significant number of women who are bothered by the issue. Why do you object to trying to accommodate their needs within a halachic framework?

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  30. nashim daatan kalos. If women are traumatized by having their life (or their baby's life) saved by a neighbor, they would presumably be much more traumatized by having a jittery woman make a mistake in trying to save them. Since women are not EMTs in our communities, we lack a basis of comparison. But we can risk lives in trying to form a basis of comparison. Also, "ain mitzvas aseh sh'hazman grama gedolah mi zu!" Her husband is in shul, she is at home with young children on Shabbos, she is going to now drop everything and run to save a life leaving her kids alone. If we allow only those female emts that do not have young children, that would make the idea more tolerable.

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  31. Michoel said...

    nashim daatan kalos. If women are traumatized by having their life (or their baby's life) saved by a neighbor, they would presumably be much more traumatized by having a jittery woman make a mistake in trying to save them. Since women are not EMTs in our communities, we lack a basis of comparison. But we can risk lives in trying to form a basis of comparison. Also, "ain mitzvas aseh sh'hazman grama gedolah mi zu!" Her husband is in shul, she is at home with young children on Shabbos, she is going to now drop everything and run to save a life leaving her kids alone. If we allow only those female emts that do not have young children, that would make the idea more tolerable.
    ================
    Michoel no one is suggesting having untrained jittery people getting involved.
    Regarding the issue of women's involvment versus their husband's time in shul - there are women that this is not a problem and others can arrange their schedule to be available.

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  32. R. Eidensohn:

    I did suggest that any woman who has a problem with H on this issue, is more than free and welcome to call 9-1-1 for a paramedic ambulette.

    What's the problem?

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  33. I think a very meaningful point to clarify is: Do women delay placing a call (even a bit) because of fear of embarrassment? If the answer is No, then if there is even a small possibility of degrading the level of response by bringing in women, it would seem unjustifiable.

    If the answer is yes, then the tzadadim need to be weighed further.

    Michoel

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  34. Baila said...

    R. Eidensohn:

    I did suggest that any woman who has a problem with H on this issue, is more than free and welcome to call 9-1-1 for a paramedic ambulette.

    What's the problem?
    =================
    You are apparently assuming that the service provided by 911 is equivalent to Hatzolah - when it clearly is not.

    You also are rather dismissive of any efforts to accommodate the needs of women who have a serious problem. Again - no one is suggested violating halacha. The issue is whether it is possible within the framework of halacha to deal with the problem

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  35. 9-1-1 will generally provide a quicker response than a delayed H response that requires a delay to get a woman.

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  36. Baila said...

    9-1-1 will generally provide a quicker response than a delayed H response that requires a delay to get a woman.
    ===============
    this is one of the points that needs clarification - and I assume you are only offering conjecture. If in fact you have some actual evidence - please share it with us.

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  37. http://www.jaoa.org/content/105/8/369.full.pdf+html

    Many women prefer female OB/GYNs, and the number of female OB/GYNs will soon exceed the men. So, there is a demand, and the Jewish women are not alone on this issue.

    This type of dialogue needs to continue, and Rav Moshe's p'sak, to say the least, needs to be addressed. What were the issues, what facts were presented, can a plan be devised now. Its an issue for the poskim, and its either, yes, or, no.

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  38. Another conjecture is that since we are discussing non-urgent Hatzalah calls by women (as you've indicated), calling 9-1-1 instead of H may be the best solution to this issue of community members responding to calls.

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  39. 911's response time is not so much longer than Hatzalah's, that it is a problem to use 911 for woman-in-labor calls. I would suggest 911. I haven't heard of many, if at any, complaints with 911 getting a woman-in-labor to the hospital in time.

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  40. Additionally, if there were a real problem with male paramedics treating women in labor why has their been no outcry by women across thousands of cities in the United States demanding that 9-1-1 provide them only female paramedics on labor calls. Their silence is deafening.
    --
    In as much as the Jewish community in the U. S. is not a monolith, might a wide variance in the preference for female paramedics over male paramedics be attributed to variances in community standards?

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  41. Aqualung: Hatzalah is not a vanity service where you can request your preferred paramedic. If someone doesn't want a community member responding they can call 911. Especially for a non-urgent call.

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  42. yenta said...

    Aqualung: Hatzalah is not a vanity service where you can request your preferred paramedic. If someone doesn't want a community member responding they can call 911. Especially for a non-urgent call.
    =================
    Why are you describing modesty issues as vanity? It is not as if they are asking only for an emt who has brown hair or is 6ft tall.

    No one I spoke to in hatzala views this as a trivial issue - so why are you expressing such contempt?

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  43. "modest issues"? Pikuach nefesh takes precedence over modesty. If its a modesty issue the suggestion should be only male paramedics should respond to a male having a heart attack or bleeding and only female respond to a female having a heart attack or bleeding.

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  44. yenta said...

    "modest issues"? Pikuach nefesh takes precedence over modesty. If its a modesty issue the suggestion should be only male paramedics should respond to a male having a heart attack or bleeding and only female respond to a female having a heart attack or bleeding.
    =================
    You seem to have a reading comprehension issue. If it is a question of modesty vs. pikuach nefesh then you are correct. However the discussion has been whether modesty issues can be addressed in addition to pikuach nefesh.

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  45. You didn't answer why not suggest female paramedics respond to females suffering a heart attack or bleeding. Why only labor issues?

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  46. if the issue is modesty it would apply in those cases too.

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  47. Obama's Hell-Care planNovember 2, 2011 at 2:19 PM

    What I don't like about Hatzolah is they refuse to take you to a doctor outside of a hospital setting, even if it is Shabbos and the hospital is much further away and even if you complain to them that your insurance has a monstrous deductible to discourage it that you cannot afford. They do not deny that you have an emergency that lav davka needs a hospital. They patronize you that we are not some courtesy service and offer to call a taxi cab. I know one case where they did this to a woman who was in a lot of pain. What gives them a right to do this? Even if the patient is in error, which Hatzolah did not claim, the doctor can make the determination if hospitalization is necessary.

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  48. Rubashkin was a player in the Allou money laundering scandal.

    http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/brooklyn/bank_fraud_case_jolts_satmar_schools_BYcbHeZmUUM53SVyfyMxGM

    A massive federal bankruptcy case threatens to cripple the school system of Brooklyn’s Satmar community, whose operator is accused of a huge money-laundering scam, court records show.

    The United Talmudical Academy is being sued for $200 million by a bankruptcy trustee who claims the UTA helped a big donor conceal bank fraud at the contributor’s company -- and the case is expected to go to trial early next year.

    The trustee claims in Brooklyn federal bankruptcy court records that as far back as 1997, the UTA was helping the family of Victor Jacobs hide the fact that his Allou Distributors was cooking its books to boost its line of credit from a lender.

    Allou, a pharmaceutical- and health- and beauty-supply wholesaler, later went bust.
    An observer of the legal situation told The Post that the UTA could be forced to shut its doors if the trustee wins the case.

    “This organization has substantial amounts of real estate in Brooklyn and Queens. The trustee would have an obligation to collect,” the observer noted.

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  49. yenta said...

    You didn't answer why not suggest female paramedics respond to females suffering a heart attack or bleeding. Why only labor issues?
    ==================
    It is obvious that if it were possible without endangering life - then these would also be included.

    One EMT told me of a woman who had a heart attack in a shul - she needed to be undressed in shul to apply shock - while the congregation stood around. There was a cardiologist who was a member of the minyan who told hatzola that this was not kavod for the shul and they should take her outside in the freezing cold to continue the procedure. When they told him he could take over or shut up - he shut up. The hatzola man told me it was extremely embarrassing to him to be dealing with a woman in these circumstances and it clearly was embarrassing to the woman.

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  50. Yet, it was pikuach nefesh and a male serviced the female. Yet, no one is suggesting only females respond to female heart attacks. I still dont have an answer why labor calls need it more than all other calls with modesty issues.

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  51. yenta you keep repeating your question - totally ignoring the fact that I have answered it.

    I said if it were possible without endangering life then these would also be included. Do you have problem understanding English?

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  52. DaasTorah: please explain the difference Ms. Freier sees between labor calls and other ambulance calls. Why are labor calls less life endangering to wait for a female paramedic than other, non-labor, ambulance calls. She is only insisting labor calls be responded to by women, not other female ambulance calls. Why? How is one less life endangering than the other?

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  53. yenta: Because this is how she wishes to start her agenda. First frame it as "just" for labor calls due to modesty reasons (which as pointed out exist in other type of calls too) and throw in they don't like being treated by community members (ignoring 9-1-1 as an option for an ambulance without community members).

    When their agenda advances, and they get this first step, then they pull for full "equality". Full women Hatzalah members, etc.

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  54. As a man who hopes to some day get married and have a family, I certainly wouldn't want a neighbor or a friend (or a guy I daven in shul with) delivering my wife's baby. That is really creepy. It must be even worse for the woman! How can anyone not see how awkward that is?

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  55. Flatbush Hatzalah delivered my first child; luckily, no one I knew personally was there. Not that it would have mattered; by the time they arrived 2 minutes after the call was placed, I was so desperate that my own Rabbi could have delivered me if he knew what to do. The baby was born a few minutes later- and the Hatzalah guys were great! One made sure I didn't hyperventilate from the pain, and another assisted the baby out. My child is a toddler now and I attribute some of her health to them- who knows what could have happened had I delivered without any medical help.
    Point is- when you are desperate, take the best and quickest assistance you can get.
    Worry about the embarrassment later.
    Actually, its funny, because I remember now that while the Hatzalah guys were putting me on a stretcher, my head covering fell off. I felt embarrassed and quickly asked someone to give it to me, and put it back on.
    Embarrassment has its time and place.

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